Links and resources

Alicia's Equipping Christian Leaders article https://www.entrust4.org/post/constructivism-an-entrust-perspective

Entrust  https://www.entrust4.org/

Transcript
Speaker Name  | Start Time  | Text
Todd  | 00;00;08;21  | Constructivism is a learning philosophy dealing with how people make meaning together. On today's podcast, Laurie Lind talks about Constructivism with Alicia Costello. Find out how Entrust incorporates some constructivist theories in its approach to leadership training. So without further ado, here are Laurie and Alicia.
Laurie Lind  | 00;00;32;20  | Well, welcome back to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. I’m Laurie and my wonderful guest today is Alicia Castello, currently working with Entrust and making some changes in her work as we speak. But Alicia, thanks for joining us today.
Alicia Costello  | 00;00;50;14  | Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laurie Lind  | 00;00;56;25  | I really appreciate that. You wrote a wonderful article for our blog about this concept of constructivism within an adult education. And we'll get to that in a moment. But let's just start off with learning a bit more about you and who you are and your educational background.
Alicia Costello  | 00;01;14;17  | Yes. So my educational background is pretty simple. I got a bachelor's degree in English. And then because you can't do anything with a bachelor's degree in English, I went and got a master's degree in English, and I really liked school at that point. I really, really, really was like, Oh, this college stuff is fun. And so I went back for my masters.
Alicia Costello  | 00;01;33;26  | It was a blast. Highly recommended. Ten out of ten for anyone wondering. And I loved English was not. I've always figured I would be a teacher. I always figure that I would go into some kind of teaching profession, but that really wasn't my focus necessarily. And so as I was going into this, I wasn't setting out to say, How can I teach this in the future?
Alicia Costello  | 00;02;01;10  | I was just like, I really like this and I'm going to keep taking these classes and probably I'll end up teaching. And so that's kind of what happened. During my master's degree, I got a job as a high school teacher. It was kind of a mid-season replacement for a school in our area that needed a high school English teacher quick.
Alicia Costello  | 00;02;21;28  | And so I was teaching high school English, and then they brought me back for a full year teaching high school English, plus a few other things. It was one of those small private Christian schools, and I taught about seven different classes.
Alicia Costello  | 00;02;37;16  | And then I got out of high school teaching, finished the master's, graduated, went into ministry for about eight years, which is a full education on itself. And then I stopped doing ministry and went into teaching college. So teaching a primarily community college. So having some students who are 16 and in dual credit classes, some students who are 46 and returning to school and the whole gamut of that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;03;15;06  | So it's been super exciting. Do I think my education prepared me for that? Probably not, but I've learned a lot along the way. I guess maybe it did because it taught me how to research. And now any time I need to learn something, I just research the heck out of it. So.
Laurie Lind  | 00;03;32;26  | Ha! So what kind of classes were you teaching at that college level?
Alicia Costello  | 00;03;38;28  | At the college level. I taught English at 1301 and 1302. So you're kind of standard level English writing composition classes. And then I did teach one or two like literature based classes, which were great as well.
Laurie Lind  | 00;03;55;03  | Wow. How fun. I mean, you hear about English teachers. Garrison Keillor used to talk about poem, the professional organization of English majors who never get jobs because there's not much to do with an English major. But you've been able to really use what you learned and what you love in. And then in all of that context, then how did you get involved with that trust?
Alicia Costello  | 00;04;18;28  | Oh, it's actually a funny story. I was looking around, I had just gotten out of ministry and I was looking around and I was like, I really want to use my degree. I hadn't really been using it in ministry besides fixing everyone's commas. And so I went in and I was looking on Indeed.com, you know, good ole, indeed.
Alicia Costello  | 00;04;39;12  | And I saw a in an advertisement for a curriculum writer, a job posting for interest. And I applied. And I think I filled out the online form that it said to fill out. And they called me and they were like, How did you hear about us? And I was like, Indeed.com. And they were like, We're on. Indeed. I didn't know that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;05;04;26  | So I guess it made it sort of scoured the Internet for job postings, came across this one address and put it on its Web site. But interest had no idea. So I am kind of one of the only interest people, I think, that did not come from a previous relationship within, you know, with someone from within interest. So I knew no one when I got here.
Alicia Costello  | 00;05;28;02  | And yeah, that's how I came involved with just going through the process and prayed a lot. And here I am.
Laurie Lind  | 00;05;36;15  | That is amazing. I hadn't heard that before. And how you it would almost look like accidental, except we know it wasn't. You were meant to join us. I'm quite sure. So, like, so your background is in English and so on. Would you consider yourself more connected to education then, or more to communication in or both, or what?
Alicia Costello  | 00;06;01;21  | I think communication is education, and I think education is communication. I don't think you can put one without the other. And I think especially where I think people run into issues is when we decide to put education in a box and we decide that education is only what we learn in school or what we can get a degree in or, you know, like the three R's, Free education means learning.
Alicia Costello  | 00;06;31;29  | And hopefully that happens for your whole life, you know? We know that babies learn, but babies don't go to school, right? We also if we take if we think about education as it's what I learned in school or what I learn for a degree or my skills, we also cut out all social education, what I do and what I don't do, the etiquette, the morals, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;06;58;07  | And the second we start to forget that we're in deep trouble. Hopefully you never also finish learning. You know, I. I remember talking to a mentor of mine and her seventies, and I was saying, you know, I'm like 30, but I feel young and dumb. And she goes, Honey, so do I. And I was like, Oh, okay, this doesn't go away.
Alicia Costello  | 00;07;19;13  | Great. I'm always going to be learning, always going to be growing. And the second that I decide my education stops, then that's that's where we're in trouble.
Laurie Lind  | 00;07;29;17  | That totally makes sense. Like, because when does if we really say, Well, now I'm done, I've learned everything there is to learn. Yeah, like you say, we're in trouble.
Alicia Costello  | 00;07;38;17  | Yeah. Then we're just existing. And how boring is that?
Laurie Lind  | 00;07;42;01  | Absolutely. No, we need to keep learning and growing. So as we get into this concept about constructive ism, this big, daunting word. So you did write an article, and it's paired with an article by Dr. Guthrie from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He gets into all the real academics of constructivism. But you did as well in your article, which I really appreciated.
Laurie Lind  | 00;08;06;14  | But how would you define this educational theory called constructivism?
Alicia Costello  | 00;08;12;21  | So Constructivism sort of posits or argues, and when I say argues, I don't mean two people yelling at each other, but in the academic, yeah, a theory will argue that learners will construct knowledge. They basically take in new knowledge and put it on top of that knowledge. Right? They're constructing this knowledge rather than passively like taking this in, memorizing it, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;08;38;09  | And if you think about the word constructing, constructing means that you're building on something. There has to be some kind of existing foundation that you're building on top of. So not only are you learning new info, but you're actively building it on top of previous knowledge. So you're saying like, how could this fit into what I already have?
Alicia Costello  | 00;08;58;28  | You inevitably are going to try to fit in that new knowledge with the preexisting knowledge or understanding it through a preexisting lens as things happen and you're learning from them. And what that really means is that knowledge is sort of deeply personal. Learning is deeply personal to the individual because each person is going to come in with their own kinds of foundations, right?
Alicia Costello  | 00;09;25;09  | So they are going to actively be building on top of their own individual experience, and they're going to be taking different lessons and different emphasis from that new knowledge based on the old stuff that they've learned. So what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. The individual kind of makes their own knowledge as they're building on top in sort of seeing it through the different lenses that they're bringing to the table almost.
Alicia Costello  | 00;09;53;28  | So Constructivism argues that learning happens. It's very individualistic that what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. And it also argues that it's building on top of previous knowledge. Those are kind of the two big takeaways.
Laurie Lind  | 00;10;11;00  | And there definitely seem to make sense. In fact, as you describe it, it almost sounds to me like, well, why would we even call that a theory? Because it sounds like reality to me. But I imagine there are different thoughts about this. And you wrote in your article that constructivism was sort of developed or came into being as a reaction to kind of memorize and repeat type of learning.
Laurie Lind  | 00;10;36;17  | What's the underlying assumption of that kind of thinking about learning?
Alicia Costello  | 00;10;41;07  | Yeah, memorize and repeat is interesting. I actually don't hate it. It has its place. You know, at some point you have to remember that too, and to make for. And so I'm all about memorize and repeat in certain contexts, but it has kind of this big overarching flaw, which is that it kind of assumes assimilation. It assumes that everyone learns the same way.
Alicia Costello  | 00;11;04;18  | If I say it enough times, it will get remembered. If I say this enough times, everyone will get the same answer. Everyone that they think that giving that the answer, I want means they learned it right and they assume that everyone will remember it. Maybe this one thing on top of this other thing and 99% in the time it's regulated, two things we learn in a classroom, right?
Alicia Costello  | 00;11;26;27  | Two plus to make for that is education in the memorize and repeat kind of language. However, a constructivist understands that learning is social, and learning is not only what we learn in the classroom, but what we learn in our family dynamics, what we learn in our workplace. And and so you can't necessarily memorize that sort of interaction with that sort of learning.
Alicia Costello  | 00;11;52;24  | So memorize and repeat. It's very focused on this one type is one way that's one type of person. So while it does again have its place, it just doesn't always it's not it's not as grand of a solution as constructivism is.
Laurie Lind  | 00;12;10;24  | And I imagine that these are not the only two learning theories in existence. There probably are other thoughts about how people learn or approaches to education besides just these two extremes that we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello  | 00;12;26;14  | Oh, yes. And constructivism is a very wide spectrum. There are there are entire learning methods under constructivism. So this is just sort of an overarching kind of theory that is the big umbrella. And then underneath that you will get smaller umbrellas. I also want to say that memorize and repeat again. Well, it has its place. It's not a very good way to instill critical thinking in a person.
Alicia Costello  | 00;12;53;13  | So if that is something that your culture really appreciates, it's not going to get you there. You know, I have heard stories of people learning languages and memorizing the words, but never really understanding what they mean. How then can you go and speak any other like, you know, how can you go and have any other conversation? Great. So it's a great way to make sure that everyone knows two plus two equals four.
Alicia Costello  | 00;13;20;03  | But outside of that bound, it kind of breaks down a little.
Laurie Lind  | 00;13;24;08  | Well, that's right. And you mentioned culture, and I think we can all think of certain cultures that seem to be more focused on, memorize and repeat as least list them. Maybe it's a stereotype, but I would think of certain ones and maybe some that would be more in favor of constructivist kind of learning. Do you think this these kind of learning styles can be part of our culture or should they be or what's what might be the best way to think of the interaction there?
Alicia Costello  | 00;13;56;27  | I think they definitely can be part of our culture. Again, it's kind of a little bit comparing apples to oranges because memorize and repeat is such a narrow focus like it's only kind of in this one instance, this one classroom situation, this one thing. And constructivism is kind of about learning for your whole life, learning in the classroom and outside the classroom and in projects, and when you're a child and all this kind of thing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;14;27;26  | So it's a little bit comparing apples to oranges. And I think you need both. I think we instinctively do both. I think these learning theories, just language around those phenomena. But yeah, I think that certain learning styles make sense inside certain cultures and like go them. I I'm a constructivist. As long as learning is happening, I'm happy.
Laurie Lind  | 00;14;53;04  | So you did kind of mention the underlying assumptions of constructivism that we're building on whatever we have already experienced or learned. So this is let's take this over to some scripture. Would you be aware of any examples in the Bible of people learning through a constructivist approach?
Alicia Costello  | 00;15;16;20  | So the first if I were to like pinpoint it, if it goes straight towards a Bible verse, I like to think of that scripture and I think it's Paul and I think it's more anchored. Then he says, I planted the seed Apollo Water did God made it grow, right? Because learning in the constructivist view is so individual that you're not the first person to teach them.
Alicia Costello  | 00;15;42;07  | Two plus two equals four, right? That they will continue learning that two plus two equals four, Right? A constructivist is very interested in the learner's journey, and I think that really speaks to the learners journey. I think as Paul, you know, speaks about Timothy's mother and grandmother training him in the Lord, and he's just kind of like, I'm just building on top of what they taught you.
Alicia Costello  | 00;16;06;19  | You know, I think that that is very that's very individualist centered and journey centered. Then I think that a constructivist would appreciate that, right? And then I'm thinking, like, as you know, the big question is like, is Jesus a constructivist right? This is when I go to sleep, think about it, and.
Laurie Lind  | 00;16;25;15  | I'm sure you do. You just ponder it for hours at a time.
Alicia Costello  | 00;16;28;28  | You got to think there's something, you know. And I'm thinking, you know, like with the public, he's talking parables. He is. I think, you know, kind of using Socratic method a little bit because that was available to him. And again, like how what learning style does a culture of in right And so this would be the most appropriate cultural learning for his audience.
Alicia Costello  | 00;16;51;25  | But then I'm thinking, you know, Jesus taught the disciples by just saying come alongside me and watch. Right. The reason he had these small disciples is to just spend time with them. And so I think then Jesus really gets the fact that learning this social and the fact that there are journeys like he didn't pick one certain person from one certain, you know, the from one certain group.
Alicia Costello  | 00;17;18;26  | He gathered an amalgamation of Jewish culture in that day and he said, okay, we're all going to come together. Everyone has their own foundation and we're going to build on top of that. So you have to think that there were fights and disagreements and arguments, not only the ones that are actually codified in Scripture, but like you have to think that like the zealot and the, you know, experiences yelling at each other few times.
Alicia Costello  | 00;17;45;08  | And so I think that Jesus sort of used that constructivist approach maybe to teach socially with his social life, with his disciples. And I think he he brought them into ministry. And then he was like, okay, how are you going to solve this problem like we need to do? And I think that is very constructive is to just hand people a problem and say, Sort it out for yourselves and I'll just be here to help you along if you get stuck.
Laurie Lind  | 00;18;11;29  | Mm hmm. Yeah. It seems like you can see a lot of examples of that with him just taking a basic thing that people would have already known, whether it was fishing or farming or tax collecting, and then talking about it expanding on it, letting them, like you say, solve some problems in interest. We talk about well, we just started talking about constructivism, as far as I know, but we used I've heard terms like discovery and learning and I've heard about, like you mentioned, Socratic method, which are all of those interchangeable terms when you say.
Alicia Costello  | 00;18;46;08  | Now, I'm not an expert on all of the different ways I kind of see Socratic method. I've seen it, I've seen it happen a few different ways. When the teacher or the leader, the Socratic method is very much like, Oh, one minute I'm the teacher and I'm going to school this kid, right? I've seen it used very kind of domineering lately.
Alicia Costello  | 00;19;11;17  | And so and sometimes they even, like, embarrass the student. And I don't love that aspect of Socratic method, but when it is to people just saying like, Hey, here's an idea and you have another idea and let's come to some third idea. I like I like that kind of Socratic. So I think it depends a lot on the person who is facilitating the Socratic method.
Alicia Costello  | 00;19;33;16  | Discover and learning I think does comfortably kind of fit under constructivism. No, I'm not sure, especially just learning like how much the teacher or the leader. The titer is into that. I kind of picture a montessori school like wandering around and and discover things, right? Yeah. But I'm not sure how much of that plays into adult learning and child learning because they're very different.
Alicia Costello  | 00;20;00;29  | Adults learn in very different ways. The children learn. So I don't I'm not sure about that. But I think discovery learning like does comfortably fit under Constructivism because you can say, you know, the the child, it's sort of individually based on the person and the person is adding new knowledge on top of old knowledge. So I like that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;20;23;12  | I guess they all depend. I get really it all depends on the one in charge. Three.
Laurie Lind  | 00;20;28;01  | Yeah. Yeah. How they approach it and yeah, what, what's their own attitude towards themself and their role. But you know when we talk about it's so individualistic and it's building on your own, begin whatever experiences you bring to the situation in a way that sounds a little bit wobbly to me. What if I enter this learning experience and my foundation is off kilter or, you know, way out somewhere?
Laurie Lind  | 00;20;55;14  | My whole building is going to end up being quite unstable. How how do we avoid the danger of that in constructivist learning?
Alicia Costello  | 00;21;05;27  | Well, a pure constructivist would say like, Yay, hurray, learning it's happening, we don't care. Right? But that I mean, constructivism is an educational theory, not a moral theory. Right? Right. Okay. So I think it is the teacher in a constructivist sort of context is the one I like to see myself as the one who drops bombs in the classroom and lets them figure it out.
Laurie Lind  | 00;21;31;12  | Huh? Yeah.
Alicia Costello  | 00;21;33;10  | So whether that, you know, as they're still trying to fit all of these things into their context, it's not like growing can still happen. It's, you know, I think part of learning and part of growing up is learning that, like, things aren't necessarily as black and white. They're more nuanced than you thought they were. And I think that still fits comfortably into constructivism.
Alicia Costello  | 00;21;57;11  | You're not going to go in like everything is blue and you're just going to try to fit and argue about how red is blue, right? I think you're going to go in and learn like, oh, sometimes blue isn't as blue as I thought or sometimes this is and it's this. And a constructivist is like, Hurray, yay! Learning happened.
Alicia Costello  | 00;22;16;22  | We are happy. Education has occurred. But that's really where the teacher comes in and just ask the right questions, asks, you know, the student to think it out. And I guess the Socratic method can come a little bit into play there. But yeah, so maybe not a question that constructivist ask them so.
Laurie Lind  | 00;22;37;22  | Mm. Well because I can see you like you're saying, we probably do both if we're going to just say there are these two ends of the spectrum, memorize, repeat and constructivism. We do both all the time because if we just say Yeah, learning happens, you could learn anything. I mean, that's so nebulous, that is so wide open and memories and repeat does say that two plus two does equal four.
Laurie Lind  | 00;23;05;11  | I mean, you could land somehow on some other formulation there, but it would not. There are is sometimes a correct answer or a correct direction to head. And so maybe the two types of learning or thinking need to temper one another would that be right? Yeah.
Alicia Costello  | 00;23;22;29  | Yeah, definitely. That's why you need lots of you need multiple. Constructivism is the only way to go all the time. I'm not going to ask my kindergartner what he you know what he thinks two plus two is. Right. Well, I'm going to ask him, but then I'm go, No, it's four. It's four. I really, no matter if you say it's 32, it's really four, I promise you.
Alicia Costello  | 00;23;44;17  | Yeah. But the you know, so I think it's just an amalgamation of all of these sort of phenomena happening together. Constructivist put language on a certain aspect of it. They're describing a certain kind of learning that's happening. They now, they described it with a really big umbrella that a lot of stuff fits under, but sometimes stuff doesn't, and that's okay.
Laurie Lind  | 00;24;08;28  | Yeah. So now let's back up to and trust again. And you've been working with the UN Trusts Curriculum team. How long have you actually been working with Entrust?
Alicia Costello  | 00;24;19;09  | Two years now to years.
Laurie Lind  | 00;24;21;19  | And as we record this, I mean, by the time we released this episode all well, no, but you were going to be moving on from Entrust to do some additional creative work. And we're and I'm excited for you for that. So but within your two years at Entrust in Curriculum, what are some of the projects that you worked on or tasks that you accomplished?
Alicia Costello  | 00;24;43;28  | Oh my goodness. Well, right now we're working on a little handbook, something I'm not sure format TBD, but we're working on how to have a conversation with difficult people or not how to have a difficult conversation with people.
Laurie Lind  | 00;25;05;23  | The people on some difficult but the topics because. Right.
Alicia Costello  | 00;25;09;07  | Every one is difficult. I'm difficult. They're difficult. Everyone. Yes. And then I've worked on several revisions. I worked on the Walking with Chrysler revision, written up numerous things like these articles, blog posts, worked on newsletters and things like that. So lots of different kinds of things. And I write it right, and I think I just said the word righted.
Alicia Costello  | 00;25;40;29  | I mean, English for I'm an English teacher.
Laurie Lind  | 00;25;44;09  | Well, we're so glad that you have wrote so many things for and trust you.
Alicia Costello  | 00;25;48;26  | I had fun writing that writing experience.
Laurie Lind  | 00;25;53;26  | So like you mentioned, revising, that's revising some of our training courses, different types of things. Have you incorporated any constructivist thinking in any of the projects that you've worked on for and trust?
Alicia Costello  | 00;26;09;06  | I definitely think I have it and it helps me constructive is mindset helps me as I'm sitting in writing to to sort of get in the right position. I guess it doesn't. Nessus certainly dictate the words I'm going to type, but it helps me get into getting to what I call the right position, the right mindset, the right thinking, and what I mean by that is when I'm writing, if I'm thinking constructivist Lee, I guess it helps me not to harp on whether the participant will get the right answer, quote unquote, get the right answer.
Alicia Costello  | 00;26;50;10  | I want them to get an answer that means something to them. I want them to connect to the material because again, like learning occurs when we are connecting it to all information. So I want that connection to happen and I want thinking and new answers to come out. I'm not so concerned most of the time. On whether they will get the quote unquote correct answer.
Laurie Lind  | 00;27;19;01  | Yeah, And how do you go about achieving that goal?
Alicia Costello  | 00;27;24;12  | I think it's in the way you write the questions. If we're talking discussion questions or reflection questions, I also think it's in the way that you sort of approach the material because I want that connection to happen first, and then I want to go into the materials. So now that my audience is connected, they're engaged and then they're as I'm writing or as I'm giving them new ideas, they are connecting it into what they are experiencing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;27;59;22  | I'm also not trying. It helps me really stay away from leading questions. Right. And in I think it's ephemeral. We talk a lot about open questions versus leading questions, and so it helps me stay away from the leading question. And I find when I'm in that constructivist mindset that I write a lot more open questions and I try, I tend to not great as many leading questions when I'm really when I'm considering myself.
Alicia Costello  | 00;28;26;09  | I am the expert, I am the teacher. You will learn from me. I am brilliant. I write a lot more leading questions.
Laurie Lind  | 00;28;33;28  | MM And how would you define a leading question?
Alicia Costello  | 00;28;38;11  | A leading question is one that you asked to get a, an answer that you're already thinking. That's right. So I'm asking them, but I don't really want their opinion. I want them to regurgitate it back to what I think is the correct answer to me. So I'm not really asking them to engage their brain, engage their creativity, engage their culture.
Alicia Costello  | 00;29;05;05  | I'm asking them to repeat back that you pursue equals for. And while that can be helpful in maybe the beginning, right, we talk a lot about like the flow of the questions, why that may be helpful in the beginning. And I think you can still use a constructivist or beginning point to get to the same place.
Laurie Lind  | 00;29;27;14  | Even at the beginning of a of a discussion like of a Bible passage.
Alicia Costello  | 00;29;31;19  | Yes, I think there are ways that you can ask or focuses you can make that, you know, sometimes we have discussion leaders that will ask these very specific questions, and that's what they want. Like, oh, there's a group of ten answers that you might get, you know, or that you might give. But really, we're just looking for these ten.
Alicia Costello  | 00;29;55;14  | And I think you can even employ constructivist thinking and that connection into your first few questions.
Laurie Lind  | 00;30;03;22  | What's the advantage with the end result of using constructivist thinking in like structuring how you lead a Bible study or a Sunday school class or or whatever kind of teaching? Like it makes sense. The idea like I'm building on what I've already known and I'm adding and I'm thinking, But why? Why would it matter in the end to have helped your learners learn in that method?
Alicia Costello  | 00;30;33;05  | First of all, I think the information really sticks more to the learner. Like let's just put the learner into that perspective. It makes because they have built it on top of a foundation they already have. It sticks more. It's relevant to them. It's not just remembering when the Civil War started, right, but it's actual things they might use.
Alicia Costello  | 00;30;54;11  | And then I think, honestly, constructivism makes you a better teacher. Now, I know a lot of people, you know, listening to this might be leaders and they'd be like, What? What are you talking about? And I think constructivism, like as you are asking the questions, as you are discussing, as you're asking people to put new learning on top of old foundations, you are finding out what those old foundations are and so you are able to build off of those foundations.
Alicia Costello  | 00;31;23;15  | First of all, you have a better connection with your members of your group or class or whatever. You have a better understanding of who they are as people, who they are, as participants, where they're at. And so then you can go in and make questions better, make questions simpler, make questions this way, That way you can kind of tweak the learning experience as you go along.
Alicia Costello  | 00;31;48;15  | You can't. If we're me in my classroom, I would always like find out their foundations the first couple of weeks of class and then assign readings based on what they would connect with, right? So you get a better idea of your people will say, and then you get a better idea of as you see, as you see where they start and you see where they entered.
Alicia Costello  | 00;32;10;07  | Like what really affected them, what helps them. So you're actively learning this is how this kind of person thinks where processes or filters, things like that, you're coming up with better questions to improve the learning experience as you go because of who your people are, right? You're not just sticking to the script, right? We're facing the script on the people.
Alicia Costello  | 00;32;33;12  | And so then I think that makes you a better teacher because you learn how to teach all these different types. And then I think as you look back and you see what worked and what didn't work, then you discover, you know, how you might reconceive the script a little bit to make it better for next time.
Laurie Lind  | 00;32;53;00  | So that definitely works well in it. Like sounds like we're talking kind of a small group setting or a setting that's centered around discussion. Now, what if I'm equipping leaders as a seminary professor or teacher such as yourself or pastor? And, you know, it's a setting that doesn't just lend itself to asking questions, even or discussion so much.
Laurie Lind  | 00;33;16;28  | Is there any way to incorporate constructivist thinking in that learning environment?
Alicia Costello  | 00;33;22;16  | Sure. So spoiler alert for me, I actually teach grammar in my classes. A lot of English professors don't teach grammar in their classes, but as I was talking to my students, I realized that they're actually really worried about whether where to put a comma and they get really stressed out in their papers because they don't know where to put commas.
Laurie Lind  | 00;33;42;04  | I don't know how many hours of sleep I've lost, you know, the serial comma question. Yeah, I know.
Alicia Costello  | 00;33;48;07  | And so I realized that this is a very big stressor to them. And so I was like, you know what? I understand that memorize and repeat. Like, it's just it doesn't work and it's not good, but I'm going to try it right? And so I went in and overall it's been very positive to, you know, kind of teach the students like how to where it put commas.
Alicia Costello  | 00;34;10;26  | They feel better. That's what they tell me. I feel better. I feel like I know grammar a little better, which is good. I like that. Anything to take the stress off of them. Students are too stressed, just like.
Laurie Lind  | 00;34;21;24  | Amen, that's all.
Alicia Costello  | 00;34;24;09  | So then I noticed that they were starting to get a little bored. They're starting to feel a little restless. And we were going into a part of our class where we're going to edit a paper, right, to learn how to edit. And so what I wanted to do is not just give them like the memorize and repeat this and this and this, and this is what we look for a lot.
Alicia Costello  | 00;34;43;17  | But I wrote a really bad paper, like a just terrible paper. I had a paper that would have gotten a D-minus in my class and I handed it to them. I decided I'm going to put the learning in there, in there, their hands. I just handed it to them and just watched them freak out over the fact they couldn't understand anything, that things were misspelled, things weren't explained.
Alicia Costello  | 00;35;07;29  | They jumped around the points all over the place and I just watched them lose it over how annoying this paper was to read. That's great. And as I sat there and was like, All right, how do we fix this? They they explained my lesson. You know, they said, And I'm serious. I had maybe a 32 slide PowerPoint ready to go in case it didn't work.
Alicia Costello  | 00;35;37;21  | They explained 31 of those slides themselves. They sat down and said, okay, first of all, we need paragraphs. This is atrocious. We need to define our terms. We need to not use pronouns until we've explained what they mean, right? We need to go over here and do this. We need a good title and was just like, okay, yes, here you go.
Alicia Costello  | 00;35;58;02  | This is that was constructivism at, you know, at its best. I just went in and I dropped the bomb and I just away and watched the aftermath. And if there were any kinds of good questions I could ask to steer in a certain direction, that's what I did. And so that's kind of how I took something as as memorize and repeat as grammar and made it a little constructivist right.
Alicia Costello  | 00;36;27;11  | And so I think if you give the students we didn't come up with this because we're brilliant, we've come up with this stuff because it works. And it's it's the right thing to do with a little bit of thinking about it. And so I think what we can do is just like instead of, okay, everyone let's open the book and learn Chapter three.
Alicia Costello  | 00;36;47;23  | We can just ask the good questions and the kids will get to chapter three, right? Maybe they disagree with chapter three a little bit. Maybe they agree. Chapter three a little bit. That's okay. I am just watering a growing seed. Maybe they will get there in the end. Maybe they will not. Ultimately, whether I'm a and repeat kind of teacher or a constructivist kind of teacher, that's not even in my control anyway.
Alicia Costello  | 00;37;11;02  | A lot of people have been memorized, memorized, memorized to get the right answer and thrown off the right answer at the end. Right. So constructivism sort of helps me as the teacher to like, take myself down a peg or two once I once I take myself off that teaching pedestal. A lot of times it's just to honest people working together to find an answer that is meaningful and works.
Laurie Lind  | 00;37;35;20  | While that is a great definition, right, there are two honest people working together. It makes me think too, that constructivism probably works best when the teacher or the instructor has a good dose of humility.
Alicia Costello  | 00;37;48;18  | Oh yeah. If you're a control freak, constructivism will help you to not be that way. Because again, the whole idea is there is a foundation. I probably didn't put that foundation on. I'm just watering the seed. They're going to build on top of this when I leave. And it's not. You know, I had a teacher mentor tell me one time, you're not the only one who's going to teach them to write an essay.
Alicia Costello  | 00;38;12;24  | It's okay. You know, you can you don't have to point out the 30 things wrong with their essay, maybe point out two or three the things they can learn, and then they will. A history teacher will tell me other ones or a literature teacher or a science teacher will tell them the other ones. You don't have to be the end all, be all of their knowledge and.
Alicia Costello  | 00;38;34;03  | I was like, Oh, that feels so much better. I'm less stressed.
Laurie Lind  | 00;38;38;17  | Sure takes the pressure off, doesn't it? My goodness. Almost back to what you said about the scripture where passes I planted Apollo's watered, but God causes the growth. I don't have to wait and be responsible for the whole entire growth process all by myself.
Alicia Costello  | 00;38;55;10  | Yeah, and I think it also like as teachers, sometimes we can get so stressed in in in making sure our students and and setting this thing to get the exact right answer right we can do all this work. We can have pages and pages and pages of notes and we are the ones working hardest in our group. And really the students should be the ones working hardest.
Alicia Costello  | 00;39;18;24  | They're the learners, right?
Laurie Lind  | 00;39;21;09  | Yeah.
Alicia Costello  | 00;39;21;21  | So they are the ones who should be processing. We should be thinking it should feel like a work out to come to your class or Bible study or whatever, because you shouldn't be the one running marathons to make this happen. They should be. So if I could tell a quick story real quick.
Laurie Lind  | 00;39;38;28  | Yes, please.
Alicia Costello  | 00;39;40;07  | Illustrates that this summer I went with our youth group to help redo a house that was still under construction from Hurricane Harvey. And we're down here in Houston. Are we a big deal? And I had a group of 12 year old boys, okay. And we are redoing this house. And it's come to the point where we cut we're cutting baseboards to put in the house.
Alicia Costello  | 00;40;05;24  | Okay. And so a memorize and repeat kind of teacher would walk around and say, okay, first what you do is you make sure you have all the baseboard you need. The second thing you do is you memorize the wall. You know, you measure the wall. The third thing you do is you mark the baseboard. But I didn't do that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;40;24;06  | I didn't do that. I handed them a baseboard. I said, I'm going to cut because I can use this saw. How do you do this? And I just let them think it out and figure it out. And they said, okay, well, you cut it. And I said, okay, where? And they said, Well, I think we should measure it.
Alicia Costello  | 00;40;43;09  | And I said, that probably would be a good idea. So I handed them a measuring tape and I said, Go ahead and they measured it. They came back. They've forgotten what the measurement was. So I said, Maybe you should write it down. Now they're 12, you know. So they go, they get a pencil and a pen and they go write it down.
Alicia Costello  | 00;41;03;09  | And then they have to remember how to how to measure things because they're 12 and they've only done this in math class before. So they get the thing, they measure it, they write it down, they come back and they go, okay, it's this. And I go, okay, how do I cut a base for based on that number? And so they're, oh, we have to measure the baseboard.
Alicia Costello  | 00;41;22;11  | Yes. Okay. You know, and so I just kind of let them do all the thinking work. And if we're writing, you know, how much I thought about it versus how much they thought about it, I thought about it almost none. I let them figure it out, then do all the work them, do all the thinking, then do all the problem solving.
Alicia Costello  | 00;41;41;05  | And I did very little except ask questions. But if I was the memorize and repeat teacher, I would be like, Wait, why is no one taking notes? I'm telling you exactly step by step how to do this. So I think that's a very basic sort of idea about how constructivism happens. The difference between memorizing repeat and constructivism kind of thinking is I just kind of dropped this bomb on them.
Alicia Costello  | 00;42;05;06  | How do we cut a baseboard? And I'll handle the power tool that you have to handle the rest. And they figured out the right answer. Those baseboards are in.
Laurie Lind  | 00;42;14;13  | Did they? I was going to ask what actually happened with those baseboards. So they did some.
Alicia Costello  | 00;42;19;01  | Oh, yeah, they were great. We did have to cut a couple of times. They did forget that you had to cut it on an angle. So that changed the way we ruined one or two baseboards. But it and it took way longer than if I would have just told them this is what you do process step by step.
Alicia Costello  | 00;42;38;08  | But they learned. I have a feeling like at least half of them could have done it by themselves by the end of the day. And they'll take that back and be like, Oh, I could kind of baseboard. That's easy. You just do that.
Laurie Lind  | 00;42;48;26  | And even there you mentioned a couple of baseboards got ruined. Maybe there there does need to be room to allow some mistakes in constructivism as the learners are learning and then as Christians again we are concerned about there are right and wrong answers to certain things. Now maybe we get tied up on too many rights and too many wrongs.
Laurie Lind  | 00;43;09;04  | And the way I understand everything is the only way. And yet it's not a free for all in in our understanding of Scripture or in our equipping of leaders for local churches. So allow some mistakes. I can see that. And yet what's the you know, what's the balancing factor to keep people from concluding things that might be way, way off base?
Alicia Costello  | 00;43;33;08  | Yeah, well, I think it's partly the understanding of the journey. It's a journey when I came to Christ, I didn't have any idea. I probably still don't have an idea, right? And so just keeping that sort of humility in yourself as I think that's important as a learner, to keep that humility of like, I'm still learning, I'm still growing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;43;53;23  | It's still a journey for us who's also concerned with. There are right answers, there are wrong answers, etc. remembering that it's a journey and making sure that the relationship is open enough that I cut off this person because they think they have the wrong answer. But the relationship is still there, so I can still talk to them. I can still help them, I can still be in that relation.
Alicia Costello  | 00;44;17;20  | Sure, because a constructivist like any learning, has to happen as a social. Like you have to have two of you, right? Well, if I go away that learning can happen, right? So a constructivist understands learning is social, so there has to be that social relationship there to continue the learning process. And so I understand it's a journey. I'm not trying to be anyone's Holy Spirit, and I want that social aspect to continue because then can still happen.
Alicia Costello  | 00;44;48;26  | And guess what? The Bible says God is the one making it grow. So like I'm going to trust him in his Holy Spirit that eventually we will get to the quote unquote right answer. I hope that's the right answer that I came up with because I like to be right. But I understand that might not be it. And that's okay.
Laurie Lind  | 00;45;06;16  | Well, you're still learning. I'm still learning. And that's exactly what we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello  | 00;45;12;22  | That's right. We're learning together and this podcast is helping us.
Laurie Lind  | 00;45;16;14  | Your insights today really, really have expanded my understanding. So thank you so much.
Alicia Costello  | 00;45;22;09  | Thank you for having me. It was so great to talk to you today.
Todd  | 00;45;25;21  | You've been listening to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. We're so glad you're here. If you found this conversation between Laurie and Alicia interesting. Definitely check out Alicia's article called Constructivism: An Entrust Perspective on our website. There's a link to the article and to our site in today's show notes. We'd love for you to subscribe to Entrust Equipping leaders and share it with a friend.
Todd  | 00;45;53;09  | Thank you and see you next time.Speaker Name  | Start Time  | Text
Todd  | 00;00;08;21  | Constructivism is a learning philosophy dealing with how people make meaning together. On today's podcast, Laurie Lind talks about Constructivism with Alicia Costello. Find out how Entrust incorporates some constructivist theories in its approach to leadership training. So without further ado, here are Laurie and Alicia.
Laurie Lind  | 00;00;32;20  | Well, welcome back to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. I’m Laurie and my wonderful guest today is Alicia Castello, currently working with Entrust and making some changes in her work as we speak. But Alicia, thanks for joining us today.
Alicia Costello  | 00;00;50;14  | Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laurie Lind  | 00;00;56;25  | I really appreciate that. You wrote a wonderful article for our blog about this concept of constructivism within an adult education. And we'll get to that in a moment. But let's just start off with learning a bit more about you and who you are and your educational background.
Alicia Costello  | 00;01;14;17  | Yes. So my educational background is pretty simple. I got a bachelor's degree in English. And then because you can't do anything with a bachelor's degree in English, I went and got a master's degree in English, and I really liked school at that point. I really, really, really was like, Oh, this college stuff is fun. And so I went back for my masters.
Alicia Costello  | 00;01;33;26  | It was a blast. Highly recommended. Ten out of ten for anyone wondering. And I loved English was not. I've always figured I would be a teacher. I always figure that I would go into some kind of teaching profession, but that really wasn't my focus necessarily. And so as I was going into this, I wasn't setting out to say, How can I teach this in the future?
Alicia Costello  | 00;02;01;10  | I was just like, I really like this and I'm going to keep taking these classes and probably I'll end up teaching. And so that's kind of what happened. During my master's degree, I got a job as a high school teacher. It was kind of a mid-season replacement for a school in our area that needed a high school English teacher quick.
Alicia Costello  | 00;02;21;28  | And so I was teaching high school English, and then they brought me back for a full year teaching high school English, plus a few other things. It was one of those small private Christian schools, and I taught about seven different classes.
Alicia Costello  | 00;02;37;16  | And then I got out of high school teaching, finished the master's, graduated, went into ministry for about eight years, which is a full education on itself. And then I stopped doing ministry and went into teaching college. So teaching a primarily community college. So having some students who are 16 and in dual credit classes, some students who are 46 and returning to school and the whole gamut of that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;03;15;06  | So it's been super exciting. Do I think my education prepared me for that? Probably not, but I've learned a lot along the way. I guess maybe it did because it taught me how to research. And now any time I need to learn something, I just research the heck out of it. So.
Laurie Lind  | 00;03;32;26  | Ha! So what kind of classes were you teaching at that college level?
Alicia Costello  | 00;03;38;28  | At the college level. I taught English at 1301 and 1302. So you're kind of standard level English writing composition classes. And then I did teach one or two like literature based classes, which were great as well.
Laurie Lind  | 00;03;55;03  | Wow. How fun. I mean, you hear about English teachers. Garrison Keillor used to talk about poem, the professional organization of English majors who never get jobs because there's not much to do with an English major. But you've been able to really use what you learned and what you love in. And then in all of that context, then how did you get involved with that trust?
Alicia Costello  | 00;04;18;28  | Oh, it's actually a funny story. I was looking around, I had just gotten out of ministry and I was looking around and I was like, I really want to use my degree. I hadn't really been using it in ministry besides fixing everyone's commas. And so I went in and I was looking on Indeed.com, you know, good ole, indeed.
Alicia Costello  | 00;04;39;12  | And I saw a in an advertisement for a curriculum writer, a job posting for interest. And I applied. And I think I filled out the online form that it said to fill out. And they called me and they were like, How did you hear about us? And I was like, Indeed.com. And they were like, We're on. Indeed. I didn't know that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;05;04;26  | So I guess it made it sort of scoured the Internet for job postings, came across this one address and put it on its Web site. But interest had no idea. So I am kind of one of the only interest people, I think, that did not come from a previous relationship within, you know, with someone from within interest. So I knew no one when I got here.
Alicia Costello  | 00;05;28;02  | And yeah, that's how I came involved with just going through the process and prayed a lot. And here I am.
Laurie Lind  | 00;05;36;15  | That is amazing. I hadn't heard that before. And how you it would almost look like accidental, except we know it wasn't. You were meant to join us. I'm quite sure. So, like, so your background is in English and so on. Would you consider yourself more connected to education then, or more to communication in or both, or what?
Alicia Costello  | 00;06;01;21  | I think communication is education, and I think education is communication. I don't think you can put one without the other. And I think especially where I think people run into issues is when we decide to put education in a box and we decide that education is only what we learn in school or what we can get a degree in or, you know, like the three R's, Free education means learning.
Alicia Costello  | 00;06;31;29  | And hopefully that happens for your whole life, you know? We know that babies learn, but babies don't go to school, right? We also if we take if we think about education as it's what I learned in school or what I learn for a degree or my skills, we also cut out all social education, what I do and what I don't do, the etiquette, the morals, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;06;58;07  | And the second we start to forget that we're in deep trouble. Hopefully you never also finish learning. You know, I. I remember talking to a mentor of mine and her seventies, and I was saying, you know, I'm like 30, but I feel young and dumb. And she goes, Honey, so do I. And I was like, Oh, okay, this doesn't go away.
Alicia Costello  | 00;07;19;13  | Great. I'm always going to be learning, always going to be growing. And the second that I decide my education stops, then that's that's where we're in trouble.
Laurie Lind  | 00;07;29;17  | That totally makes sense. Like, because when does if we really say, Well, now I'm done, I've learned everything there is to learn. Yeah, like you say, we're in trouble.
Alicia Costello  | 00;07;38;17  | Yeah. Then we're just existing. And how boring is that?
Laurie Lind  | 00;07;42;01  | Absolutely. No, we need to keep learning and growing. So as we get into this concept about constructive ism, this big, daunting word. So you did write an article, and it's paired with an article by Dr. Guthrie from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He gets into all the real academics of constructivism. But you did as well in your article, which I really appreciated.
Laurie Lind  | 00;08;06;14  | But how would you define this educational theory called constructivism?
Alicia Costello  | 00;08;12;21  | So Constructivism sort of posits or argues, and when I say argues, I don't mean two people yelling at each other, but in the academic, yeah, a theory will argue that learners will construct knowledge. They basically take in new knowledge and put it on top of that knowledge. Right? They're constructing this knowledge rather than passively like taking this in, memorizing it, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;08;38;09  | And if you think about the word constructing, constructing means that you're building on something. There has to be some kind of existing foundation that you're building on top of. So not only are you learning new info, but you're actively building it on top of previous knowledge. So you're saying like, how could this fit into what I already have?
Alicia Costello  | 00;08;58;28  | You inevitably are going to try to fit in that new knowledge with the preexisting knowledge or understanding it through a preexisting lens as things happen and you're learning from them. And what that really means is that knowledge is sort of deeply personal. Learning is deeply personal to the individual because each person is going to come in with their own kinds of foundations, right?
Alicia Costello  | 00;09;25;09  | So they are going to actively be building on top of their own individual experience, and they're going to be taking different lessons and different emphasis from that new knowledge based on the old stuff that they've learned. So what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. The individual kind of makes their own knowledge as they're building on top in sort of seeing it through the different lenses that they're bringing to the table almost.
Alicia Costello  | 00;09;53;28  | So Constructivism argues that learning happens. It's very individualistic that what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. And it also argues that it's building on top of previous knowledge. Those are kind of the two big takeaways.
Laurie Lind  | 00;10;11;00  | And there definitely seem to make sense. In fact, as you describe it, it almost sounds to me like, well, why would we even call that a theory? Because it sounds like reality to me. But I imagine there are different thoughts about this. And you wrote in your article that constructivism was sort of developed or came into being as a reaction to kind of memorize and repeat type of learning.
Laurie Lind  | 00;10;36;17  | What's the underlying assumption of that kind of thinking about learning?
Alicia Costello  | 00;10;41;07  | Yeah, memorize and repeat is interesting. I actually don't hate it. It has its place. You know, at some point you have to remember that too, and to make for. And so I'm all about memorize and repeat in certain contexts, but it has kind of this big overarching flaw, which is that it kind of assumes assimilation. It assumes that everyone learns the same way.
Alicia Costello  | 00;11;04;18  | If I say it enough times, it will get remembered. If I say this enough times, everyone will get the same answer. Everyone that they think that giving that the answer, I want means they learned it right and they assume that everyone will remember it. Maybe this one thing on top of this other thing and 99% in the time it's regulated, two things we learn in a classroom, right?
Alicia Costello  | 00;11;26;27  | Two plus to make for that is education in the memorize and repeat kind of language. However, a constructivist understands that learning is social, and learning is not only what we learn in the classroom, but what we learn in our family dynamics, what we learn in our workplace. And and so you can't necessarily memorize that sort of interaction with that sort of learning.
Alicia Costello  | 00;11;52;24  | So memorize and repeat. It's very focused on this one type is one way that's one type of person. So while it does again have its place, it just doesn't always it's not it's not as grand of a solution as constructivism is.
Laurie Lind  | 00;12;10;24  | And I imagine that these are not the only two learning theories in existence. There probably are other thoughts about how people learn or approaches to education besides just these two extremes that we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello  | 00;12;26;14  | Oh, yes. And constructivism is a very wide spectrum. There are there are entire learning methods under constructivism. So this is just sort of an overarching kind of theory that is the big umbrella. And then underneath that you will get smaller umbrellas. I also want to say that memorize and repeat again. Well, it has its place. It's not a very good way to instill critical thinking in a person.
Alicia Costello  | 00;12;53;13  | So if that is something that your culture really appreciates, it's not going to get you there. You know, I have heard stories of people learning languages and memorizing the words, but never really understanding what they mean. How then can you go and speak any other like, you know, how can you go and have any other conversation? Great. So it's a great way to make sure that everyone knows two plus two equals four.
Alicia Costello  | 00;13;20;03  | But outside of that bound, it kind of breaks down a little.
Laurie Lind  | 00;13;24;08  | Well, that's right. And you mentioned culture, and I think we can all think of certain cultures that seem to be more focused on, memorize and repeat as least list them. Maybe it's a stereotype, but I would think of certain ones and maybe some that would be more in favor of constructivist kind of learning. Do you think this these kind of learning styles can be part of our culture or should they be or what's what might be the best way to think of the interaction there?
Alicia Costello  | 00;13;56;27  | I think they definitely can be part of our culture. Again, it's kind of a little bit comparing apples to oranges because memorize and repeat is such a narrow focus like it's only kind of in this one instance, this one classroom situation, this one thing. And constructivism is kind of about learning for your whole life, learning in the classroom and outside the classroom and in projects, and when you're a child and all this kind of thing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;14;27;26  | So it's a little bit comparing apples to oranges. And I think you need both. I think we instinctively do both. I think these learning theories, just language around those phenomena. But yeah, I think that certain learning styles make sense inside certain cultures and like go them. I I'm a constructivist. As long as learning is happening, I'm happy.
Laurie Lind  | 00;14;53;04  | So you did kind of mention the underlying assumptions of constructivism that we're building on whatever we have already experienced or learned. So this is let's take this over to some scripture. Would you be aware of any examples in the Bible of people learning through a constructivist approach?
Alicia Costello  | 00;15;16;20  | So the first if I were to like pinpoint it, if it goes straight towards a Bible verse, I like to think of that scripture and I think it's Paul and I think it's more anchored. Then he says, I planted the seed Apollo Water did God made it grow, right? Because learning in the constructivist view is so individual that you're not the first person to teach them.
Alicia Costello  | 00;15;42;07  | Two plus two equals four, right? That they will continue learning that two plus two equals four, Right? A constructivist is very interested in the learner's journey, and I think that really speaks to the learners journey. I think as Paul, you know, speaks about Timothy's mother and grandmother training him in the Lord, and he's just kind of like, I'm just building on top of what they taught you.
Alicia Costello  | 00;16;06;19  | You know, I think that that is very that's very individualist centered and journey centered. Then I think that a constructivist would appreciate that, right? And then I'm thinking, like, as you know, the big question is like, is Jesus a constructivist right? This is when I go to sleep, think about it, and.
Laurie Lind  | 00;16;25;15  | I'm sure you do. You just ponder it for hours at a time.
Alicia Costello  | 00;16;28;28  | You got to think there's something, you know. And I'm thinking, you know, like with the public, he's talking parables. He is. I think, you know, kind of using Socratic method a little bit because that was available to him. And again, like how what learning style does a culture of in right And so this would be the most appropriate cultural learning for his audience.
Alicia Costello  | 00;16;51;25  | But then I'm thinking, you know, Jesus taught the disciples by just saying come alongside me and watch. Right. The reason he had these small disciples is to just spend time with them. And so I think then Jesus really gets the fact that learning this social and the fact that there are journeys like he didn't pick one certain person from one certain, you know, the from one certain group.
Alicia Costello  | 00;17;18;26  | He gathered an amalgamation of Jewish culture in that day and he said, okay, we're all going to come together. Everyone has their own foundation and we're going to build on top of that. So you have to think that there were fights and disagreements and arguments, not only the ones that are actually codified in Scripture, but like you have to think that like the zealot and the, you know, experiences yelling at each other few times.
Alicia Costello  | 00;17;45;08  | And so I think that Jesus sort of used that constructivist approach maybe to teach socially with his social life, with his disciples. And I think he he brought them into ministry. And then he was like, okay, how are you going to solve this problem like we need to do? And I think that is very constructive is to just hand people a problem and say, Sort it out for yourselves and I'll just be here to help you along if you get stuck.
Laurie Lind  | 00;18;11;29  | Mm hmm. Yeah. It seems like you can see a lot of examples of that with him just taking a basic thing that people would have already known, whether it was fishing or farming or tax collecting, and then talking about it expanding on it, letting them, like you say, solve some problems in interest. We talk about well, we just started talking about constructivism, as far as I know, but we used I've heard terms like discovery and learning and I've heard about, like you mentioned, Socratic method, which are all of those interchangeable terms when you say.
Alicia Costello  | 00;18;46;08  | Now, I'm not an expert on all of the different ways I kind of see Socratic method. I've seen it, I've seen it happen a few different ways. When the teacher or the leader, the Socratic method is very much like, Oh, one minute I'm the teacher and I'm going to school this kid, right? I've seen it used very kind of domineering lately.
Alicia Costello  | 00;19;11;17  | And so and sometimes they even, like, embarrass the student. And I don't love that aspect of Socratic method, but when it is to people just saying like, Hey, here's an idea and you have another idea and let's come to some third idea. I like I like that kind of Socratic. So I think it depends a lot on the person who is facilitating the Socratic method.
Alicia Costello  | 00;19;33;16  | Discover and learning I think does comfortably kind of fit under constructivism. No, I'm not sure, especially just learning like how much the teacher or the leader. The titer is into that. I kind of picture a montessori school like wandering around and and discover things, right? Yeah. But I'm not sure how much of that plays into adult learning and child learning because they're very different.
Alicia Costello  | 00;20;00;29  | Adults learn in very different ways. The children learn. So I don't I'm not sure about that. But I think discovery learning like does comfortably fit under Constructivism because you can say, you know, the the child, it's sort of individually based on the person and the person is adding new knowledge on top of old knowledge. So I like that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;20;23;12  | I guess they all depend. I get really it all depends on the one in charge. Three.
Laurie Lind  | 00;20;28;01  | Yeah. Yeah. How they approach it and yeah, what, what's their own attitude towards themself and their role. But you know when we talk about it's so individualistic and it's building on your own, begin whatever experiences you bring to the situation in a way that sounds a little bit wobbly to me. What if I enter this learning experience and my foundation is off kilter or, you know, way out somewhere?
Laurie Lind  | 00;20;55;14  | My whole building is going to end up being quite unstable. How how do we avoid the danger of that in constructivist learning?
Alicia Costello  | 00;21;05;27  | Well, a pure constructivist would say like, Yay, hurray, learning it's happening, we don't care. Right? But that I mean, constructivism is an educational theory, not a moral theory. Right? Right. Okay. So I think it is the teacher in a constructivist sort of context is the one I like to see myself as the one who drops bombs in the classroom and lets them figure it out.
Laurie Lind  | 00;21;31;12  | Huh? Yeah.
Alicia Costello  | 00;21;33;10  | So whether that, you know, as they're still trying to fit all of these things into their context, it's not like growing can still happen. It's, you know, I think part of learning and part of growing up is learning that, like, things aren't necessarily as black and white. They're more nuanced than you thought they were. And I think that still fits comfortably into constructivism.
Alicia Costello  | 00;21;57;11  | You're not going to go in like everything is blue and you're just going to try to fit and argue about how red is blue, right? I think you're going to go in and learn like, oh, sometimes blue isn't as blue as I thought or sometimes this is and it's this. And a constructivist is like, Hurray, yay! Learning happened.
Alicia Costello  | 00;22;16;22  | We are happy. Education has occurred. But that's really where the teacher comes in and just ask the right questions, asks, you know, the student to think it out. And I guess the Socratic method can come a little bit into play there. But yeah, so maybe not a question that constructivist ask them so.
Laurie Lind  | 00;22;37;22  | Mm. Well because I can see you like you're saying, we probably do both if we're going to just say there are these two ends of the spectrum, memorize, repeat and constructivism. We do both all the time because if we just say Yeah, learning happens, you could learn anything. I mean, that's so nebulous, that is so wide open and memories and repeat does say that two plus two does equal four.
Laurie Lind  | 00;23;05;11  | I mean, you could land somehow on some other formulation there, but it would not. There are is sometimes a correct answer or a correct direction to head. And so maybe the two types of learning or thinking need to temper one another would that be right? Yeah.
Alicia Costello  | 00;23;22;29  | Yeah, definitely. That's why you need lots of you need multiple. Constructivism is the only way to go all the time. I'm not going to ask my kindergartner what he you know what he thinks two plus two is. Right. Well, I'm going to ask him, but then I'm go, No, it's four. It's four. I really, no matter if you say it's 32, it's really four, I promise you.
Alicia Costello  | 00;23;44;17  | Yeah. But the you know, so I think it's just an amalgamation of all of these sort of phenomena happening together. Constructivist put language on a certain aspect of it. They're describing a certain kind of learning that's happening. They now, they described it with a really big umbrella that a lot of stuff fits under, but sometimes stuff doesn't, and that's okay.
Laurie Lind  | 00;24;08;28  | Yeah. So now let's back up to and trust again. And you've been working with the UN Trusts Curriculum team. How long have you actually been working with Entrust?
Alicia Costello  | 00;24;19;09  | Two years now to years.
Laurie Lind  | 00;24;21;19  | And as we record this, I mean, by the time we released this episode all well, no, but you were going to be moving on from Entrust to do some additional creative work. And we're and I'm excited for you for that. So but within your two years at Entrust in Curriculum, what are some of the projects that you worked on or tasks that you accomplished?
Alicia Costello  | 00;24;43;28  | Oh my goodness. Well, right now we're working on a little handbook, something I'm not sure format TBD, but we're working on how to have a conversation with difficult people or not how to have a difficult conversation with people.
Laurie Lind  | 00;25;05;23  | The people on some difficult but the topics because. Right.
Alicia Costello  | 00;25;09;07  | Every one is difficult. I'm difficult. They're difficult. Everyone. Yes. And then I've worked on several revisions. I worked on the Walking with Chrysler revision, written up numerous things like these articles, blog posts, worked on newsletters and things like that. So lots of different kinds of things. And I write it right, and I think I just said the word righted.
Alicia Costello  | 00;25;40;29  | I mean, English for I'm an English teacher.
Laurie Lind  | 00;25;44;09  | Well, we're so glad that you have wrote so many things for and trust you.
Alicia Costello  | 00;25;48;26  | I had fun writing that writing experience.
Laurie Lind  | 00;25;53;26  | So like you mentioned, revising, that's revising some of our training courses, different types of things. Have you incorporated any constructivist thinking in any of the projects that you've worked on for and trust?
Alicia Costello  | 00;26;09;06  | I definitely think I have it and it helps me constructive is mindset helps me as I'm sitting in writing to to sort of get in the right position. I guess it doesn't. Nessus certainly dictate the words I'm going to type, but it helps me get into getting to what I call the right position, the right mindset, the right thinking, and what I mean by that is when I'm writing, if I'm thinking constructivist Lee, I guess it helps me not to harp on whether the participant will get the right answer, quote unquote, get the right answer.
Alicia Costello  | 00;26;50;10  | I want them to get an answer that means something to them. I want them to connect to the material because again, like learning occurs when we are connecting it to all information. So I want that connection to happen and I want thinking and new answers to come out. I'm not so concerned most of the time. On whether they will get the quote unquote correct answer.
Laurie Lind  | 00;27;19;01  | Yeah, And how do you go about achieving that goal?
Alicia Costello  | 00;27;24;12  | I think it's in the way you write the questions. If we're talking discussion questions or reflection questions, I also think it's in the way that you sort of approach the material because I want that connection to happen first, and then I want to go into the materials. So now that my audience is connected, they're engaged and then they're as I'm writing or as I'm giving them new ideas, they are connecting it into what they are experiencing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;27;59;22  | I'm also not trying. It helps me really stay away from leading questions. Right. And in I think it's ephemeral. We talk a lot about open questions versus leading questions, and so it helps me stay away from the leading question. And I find when I'm in that constructivist mindset that I write a lot more open questions and I try, I tend to not great as many leading questions when I'm really when I'm considering myself.
Alicia Costello  | 00;28;26;09  | I am the expert, I am the teacher. You will learn from me. I am brilliant. I write a lot more leading questions.
Laurie Lind  | 00;28;33;28  | MM And how would you define a leading question?
Alicia Costello  | 00;28;38;11  | A leading question is one that you asked to get a, an answer that you're already thinking. That's right. So I'm asking them, but I don't really want their opinion. I want them to regurgitate it back to what I think is the correct answer to me. So I'm not really asking them to engage their brain, engage their creativity, engage their culture.
Alicia Costello  | 00;29;05;05  | I'm asking them to repeat back that you pursue equals for. And while that can be helpful in maybe the beginning, right, we talk a lot about like the flow of the questions, why that may be helpful in the beginning. And I think you can still use a constructivist or beginning point to get to the same place.
Laurie Lind  | 00;29;27;14  | Even at the beginning of a of a discussion like of a Bible passage.
Alicia Costello  | 00;29;31;19  | Yes, I think there are ways that you can ask or focuses you can make that, you know, sometimes we have discussion leaders that will ask these very specific questions, and that's what they want. Like, oh, there's a group of ten answers that you might get, you know, or that you might give. But really, we're just looking for these ten.
Alicia Costello  | 00;29;55;14  | And I think you can even employ constructivist thinking and that connection into your first few questions.
Laurie Lind  | 00;30;03;22  | What's the advantage with the end result of using constructivist thinking in like structuring how you lead a Bible study or a Sunday school class or or whatever kind of teaching? Like it makes sense. The idea like I'm building on what I've already known and I'm adding and I'm thinking, But why? Why would it matter in the end to have helped your learners learn in that method?
Alicia Costello  | 00;30;33;05  | First of all, I think the information really sticks more to the learner. Like let's just put the learner into that perspective. It makes because they have built it on top of a foundation they already have. It sticks more. It's relevant to them. It's not just remembering when the Civil War started, right, but it's actual things they might use.
Alicia Costello  | 00;30;54;11  | And then I think, honestly, constructivism makes you a better teacher. Now, I know a lot of people, you know, listening to this might be leaders and they'd be like, What? What are you talking about? And I think constructivism, like as you are asking the questions, as you are discussing, as you're asking people to put new learning on top of old foundations, you are finding out what those old foundations are and so you are able to build off of those foundations.
Alicia Costello  | 00;31;23;15  | First of all, you have a better connection with your members of your group or class or whatever. You have a better understanding of who they are as people, who they are, as participants, where they're at. And so then you can go in and make questions better, make questions simpler, make questions this way, That way you can kind of tweak the learning experience as you go along.
Alicia Costello  | 00;31;48;15  | You can't. If we're me in my classroom, I would always like find out their foundations the first couple of weeks of class and then assign readings based on what they would connect with, right? So you get a better idea of your people will say, and then you get a better idea of as you see, as you see where they start and you see where they entered.
Alicia Costello  | 00;32;10;07  | Like what really affected them, what helps them. So you're actively learning this is how this kind of person thinks where processes or filters, things like that, you're coming up with better questions to improve the learning experience as you go because of who your people are, right? You're not just sticking to the script, right? We're facing the script on the people.
Alicia Costello  | 00;32;33;12  | And so then I think that makes you a better teacher because you learn how to teach all these different types. And then I think as you look back and you see what worked and what didn't work, then you discover, you know, how you might reconceive the script a little bit to make it better for next time.
Laurie Lind  | 00;32;53;00  | So that definitely works well in it. Like sounds like we're talking kind of a small group setting or a setting that's centered around discussion. Now, what if I'm equipping leaders as a seminary professor or teacher such as yourself or pastor? And, you know, it's a setting that doesn't just lend itself to asking questions, even or discussion so much.
Laurie Lind  | 00;33;16;28  | Is there any way to incorporate constructivist thinking in that learning environment?
Alicia Costello  | 00;33;22;16  | Sure. So spoiler alert for me, I actually teach grammar in my classes. A lot of English professors don't teach grammar in their classes, but as I was talking to my students, I realized that they're actually really worried about whether where to put a comma and they get really stressed out in their papers because they don't know where to put commas.
Laurie Lind  | 00;33;42;04  | I don't know how many hours of sleep I've lost, you know, the serial comma question. Yeah, I know.
Alicia Costello  | 00;33;48;07  | And so I realized that this is a very big stressor to them. And so I was like, you know what? I understand that memorize and repeat. Like, it's just it doesn't work and it's not good, but I'm going to try it right? And so I went in and overall it's been very positive to, you know, kind of teach the students like how to where it put commas.
Alicia Costello  | 00;34;10;26  | They feel better. That's what they tell me. I feel better. I feel like I know grammar a little better, which is good. I like that. Anything to take the stress off of them. Students are too stressed, just like.
Laurie Lind  | 00;34;21;24  | Amen, that's all.
Alicia Costello  | 00;34;24;09  | So then I noticed that they were starting to get a little bored. They're starting to feel a little restless. And we were going into a part of our class where we're going to edit a paper, right, to learn how to edit. And so what I wanted to do is not just give them like the memorize and repeat this and this and this, and this is what we look for a lot.
Alicia Costello  | 00;34;43;17  | But I wrote a really bad paper, like a just terrible paper. I had a paper that would have gotten a D-minus in my class and I handed it to them. I decided I'm going to put the learning in there, in there, their hands. I just handed it to them and just watched them freak out over the fact they couldn't understand anything, that things were misspelled, things weren't explained.
Alicia Costello  | 00;35;07;29  | They jumped around the points all over the place and I just watched them lose it over how annoying this paper was to read. That's great. And as I sat there and was like, All right, how do we fix this? They they explained my lesson. You know, they said, And I'm serious. I had maybe a 32 slide PowerPoint ready to go in case it didn't work.
Alicia Costello  | 00;35;37;21  | They explained 31 of those slides themselves. They sat down and said, okay, first of all, we need paragraphs. This is atrocious. We need to define our terms. We need to not use pronouns until we've explained what they mean, right? We need to go over here and do this. We need a good title and was just like, okay, yes, here you go.
Alicia Costello  | 00;35;58;02  | This is that was constructivism at, you know, at its best. I just went in and I dropped the bomb and I just away and watched the aftermath. And if there were any kinds of good questions I could ask to steer in a certain direction, that's what I did. And so that's kind of how I took something as as memorize and repeat as grammar and made it a little constructivist right.
Alicia Costello  | 00;36;27;11  | And so I think if you give the students we didn't come up with this because we're brilliant, we've come up with this stuff because it works. And it's it's the right thing to do with a little bit of thinking about it. And so I think what we can do is just like instead of, okay, everyone let's open the book and learn Chapter three.
Alicia Costello  | 00;36;47;23  | We can just ask the good questions and the kids will get to chapter three, right? Maybe they disagree with chapter three a little bit. Maybe they agree. Chapter three a little bit. That's okay. I am just watering a growing seed. Maybe they will get there in the end. Maybe they will not. Ultimately, whether I'm a and repeat kind of teacher or a constructivist kind of teacher, that's not even in my control anyway.
Alicia Costello  | 00;37;11;02  | A lot of people have been memorized, memorized, memorized to get the right answer and thrown off the right answer at the end. Right. So constructivism sort of helps me as the teacher to like, take myself down a peg or two once I once I take myself off that teaching pedestal. A lot of times it's just to honest people working together to find an answer that is meaningful and works.
Laurie Lind  | 00;37;35;20  | While that is a great definition, right, there are two honest people working together. It makes me think too, that constructivism probably works best when the teacher or the instructor has a good dose of humility.
Alicia Costello  | 00;37;48;18  | Oh yeah. If you're a control freak, constructivism will help you to not be that way. Because again, the whole idea is there is a foundation. I probably didn't put that foundation on. I'm just watering the seed. They're going to build on top of this when I leave. And it's not. You know, I had a teacher mentor tell me one time, you're not the only one who's going to teach them to write an essay.
Alicia Costello  | 00;38;12;24  | It's okay. You know, you can you don't have to point out the 30 things wrong with their essay, maybe point out two or three the things they can learn, and then they will. A history teacher will tell me other ones or a literature teacher or a science teacher will tell them the other ones. You don't have to be the end all, be all of their knowledge and.
Alicia Costello  | 00;38;34;03  | I was like, Oh, that feels so much better. I'm less stressed.
Laurie Lind  | 00;38;38;17  | Sure takes the pressure off, doesn't it? My goodness. Almost back to what you said about the scripture where passes I planted Apollo's watered, but God causes the growth. I don't have to wait and be responsible for the whole entire growth process all by myself.
Alicia Costello  | 00;38;55;10  | Yeah, and I think it also like as teachers, sometimes we can get so stressed in in in making sure our students and and setting this thing to get the exact right answer right we can do all this work. We can have pages and pages and pages of notes and we are the ones working hardest in our group. And really the students should be the ones working hardest.
Alicia Costello  | 00;39;18;24  | They're the learners, right?
Laurie Lind  | 00;39;21;09  | Yeah.
Alicia Costello  | 00;39;21;21  | So they are the ones who should be processing. We should be thinking it should feel like a work out to come to your class or Bible study or whatever, because you shouldn't be the one running marathons to make this happen. They should be. So if I could tell a quick story real quick.
Laurie Lind  | 00;39;38;28  | Yes, please.
Alicia Costello  | 00;39;40;07  | Illustrates that this summer I went with our youth group to help redo a house that was still under construction from Hurricane Harvey. And we're down here in Houston. Are we a big deal? And I had a group of 12 year old boys, okay. And we are redoing this house. And it's come to the point where we cut we're cutting baseboards to put in the house.
Alicia Costello  | 00;40;05;24  | Okay. And so a memorize and repeat kind of teacher would walk around and say, okay, first what you do is you make sure you have all the baseboard you need. The second thing you do is you memorize the wall. You know, you measure the wall. The third thing you do is you mark the baseboard. But I didn't do that.
Alicia Costello  | 00;40;24;06  | I didn't do that. I handed them a baseboard. I said, I'm going to cut because I can use this saw. How do you do this? And I just let them think it out and figure it out. And they said, okay, well, you cut it. And I said, okay, where? And they said, Well, I think we should measure it.
Alicia Costello  | 00;40;43;09  | And I said, that probably would be a good idea. So I handed them a measuring tape and I said, Go ahead and they measured it. They came back. They've forgotten what the measurement was. So I said, Maybe you should write it down. Now they're 12, you know. So they go, they get a pencil and a pen and they go write it down.
Alicia Costello  | 00;41;03;09  | And then they have to remember how to how to measure things because they're 12 and they've only done this in math class before. So they get the thing, they measure it, they write it down, they come back and they go, okay, it's this. And I go, okay, how do I cut a base for based on that number? And so they're, oh, we have to measure the baseboard.
Alicia Costello  | 00;41;22;11  | Yes. Okay. You know, and so I just kind of let them do all the thinking work. And if we're writing, you know, how much I thought about it versus how much they thought about it, I thought about it almost none. I let them figure it out, then do all the work them, do all the thinking, then do all the problem solving.
Alicia Costello  | 00;41;41;05  | And I did very little except ask questions. But if I was the memorize and repeat teacher, I would be like, Wait, why is no one taking notes? I'm telling you exactly step by step how to do this. So I think that's a very basic sort of idea about how constructivism happens. The difference between memorizing repeat and constructivism kind of thinking is I just kind of dropped this bomb on them.
Alicia Costello  | 00;42;05;06  | How do we cut a baseboard? And I'll handle the power tool that you have to handle the rest. And they figured out the right answer. Those baseboards are in.
Laurie Lind  | 00;42;14;13  | Did they? I was going to ask what actually happened with those baseboards. So they did some.
Alicia Costello  | 00;42;19;01  | Oh, yeah, they were great. We did have to cut a couple of times. They did forget that you had to cut it on an angle. So that changed the way we ruined one or two baseboards. But it and it took way longer than if I would have just told them this is what you do process step by step.
Alicia Costello  | 00;42;38;08  | But they learned. I have a feeling like at least half of them could have done it by themselves by the end of the day. And they'll take that back and be like, Oh, I could kind of baseboard. That's easy. You just do that.
Laurie Lind  | 00;42;48;26  | And even there you mentioned a couple of baseboards got ruined. Maybe there there does need to be room to allow some mistakes in constructivism as the learners are learning and then as Christians again we are concerned about there are right and wrong answers to certain things. Now maybe we get tied up on too many rights and too many wrongs.
Laurie Lind  | 00;43;09;04  | And the way I understand everything is the only way. And yet it's not a free for all in in our understanding of Scripture or in our equipping of leaders for local churches. So allow some mistakes. I can see that. And yet what's the you know, what's the balancing factor to keep people from concluding things that might be way, way off base?
Alicia Costello  | 00;43;33;08  | Yeah, well, I think it's partly the understanding of the journey. It's a journey when I came to Christ, I didn't have any idea. I probably still don't have an idea, right? And so just keeping that sort of humility in yourself as I think that's important as a learner, to keep that humility of like, I'm still learning, I'm still growing.
Alicia Costello  | 00;43;53;23  | It's still a journey for us who's also concerned with. There are right answers, there are wrong answers, etc. remembering that it's a journey and making sure that the relationship is open enough that I cut off this person because they think they have the wrong answer. But the relationship is still there, so I can still talk to them. I can still help them, I can still be in that relation.
Alicia Costello  | 00;44;17;20  | Sure, because a constructivist like any learning, has to happen as a social. Like you have to have two of you, right? Well, if I go away that learning can happen, right? So a constructivist understands learning is social, so there has to be that social relationship there to continue the learning process. And so I understand it's a journey. I'm not trying to be anyone's Holy Spirit, and I want that social aspect to continue because then can still happen.
Alicia Costello  | 00;44;48;26  | And guess what? The Bible says God is the one making it grow. So like I'm going to trust him in his Holy Spirit that eventually we will get to the quote unquote right answer. I hope that's the right answer that I came up with because I like to be right. But I understand that might not be it. And that's okay.
Laurie Lind  | 00;45;06;16  | Well, you're still learning. I'm still learning. And that's exactly what we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello  | 00;45;12;22  | That's right. We're learning together and this podcast is helping us.
Laurie Lind  | 00;45;16;14  | Your insights today really, really have expanded my understanding. So thank you so much.
Alicia Costello  | 00;45;22;09  | Thank you for having me. It was so great to talk to you today.
Todd  | 00;45;25;21  | You've been listening to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. We're so glad you're here. If you found this conversation between Laurie and Alicia interesting. Definitely check out Alicia's article called Constructivism: An Entrust Perspective on our website. There's a link to the article and to our site in today's show notes. We'd love for you to subscribe to Entrust Equipping leaders and share it with a friend.
Todd  | 00;45;53;09  | Thank you and see you next time.