Entrust Equipping Leaders
Why train women? Hebrew words, Entrust modules and how not to ask good questions
December 9, 2022
Joycelyn Seybold, executive director of Entrust Equipping Women, describes key Hebrew words related to God's creation of and plan for men and women.
Guest Joycelyn Seybold. Some Hebrew words inform our understanding of God's plan for men and women. Plus, listen for Laurie's poorly-asked question (not Entrust-like at all). Joycelyn is executive director of Entrust Equipping Women.

Joycelyn's Entrust Equipping Christian Leaders article https://www.entrust4.org/post/why-train-women-god-calls-men-and-women-to-serve-together

Entrust Equipping Women https:www.entrust4.org/equippingwomen

Speaker Name  | Start Time  | Text
Joycelyn  | 00;00;01;15  | In our English vocabulary. When we think of helper, it tends to be diminished. It just tends to be somebody who is not maybe as trained or not equal to somebody, the person who they are helping.
Todd (intro/outro)  | 00;00;17;20  | Welcome back to Entrust Equipping Leaders. Today we conclude our four part series about the hows and whys of equipping women in ministry. Go back to hear parts one and two with Dr. Joye Baker of Dallas Seminary. In part three of this series, we introduced Joycelyn Seybold, who directs Entrust's women's ministry equipping branch. Today she and your host Laurie Lind, get into the meaning of a couple Hebrew words and talk about God's plan for men and women in the local church.
Todd (intro/outro)  | 00;00;47;17  | Plus, you'll hear Laurie violate Entrust's foundational thinking: that of asking open ended questions.
Laurie  | 00;00;56;22  | Yes, that's absolutely correct. In this episode, I ask a couple of questions in exactly the wrong way. Pay attention for that. I'm Laurie and we are referring back to an article that Joycelyn Seybold wrote for our blog called "Why Train Women? God Calls Men and Women to Serve Together." You can find it at our website, Entrust4. Go to the blog. I will put a link to that in the show notes.
Laurie  | 00;01;24;17  | Now we start off with that conversation about some Hebrew words which I couldn't even pronounce. So we'll let Joycelyn get us into it. Okay. So maybe you can tell us these two words in Hebrew and how do they inform this whole discussion about training and equipping women?
Joycelyn  | 00;01;42;08  | the first word is "adam." I don't think it means man, but man and in terms of humankind and human beings. And so you think of that, that's both male and female, because that's in the verse that God is talking about in Genesis one, 2627. And he says, Let us make man and meaning mankind or humankind in our image according to our likeness, and let them rule over the earth.
Joycelyn  | 00;02;11;08  | And then later, he says he created them male and female. And so in that sense, there are verses in the Bible when God is talking about man, but he's talking about humankind, human beings, which includes both male and female. And then there are other times he would use another word that would indicate that it would just be a male person verses or men, verses women.
Joycelyn  | 00;02;42;22  | And so just in terms of doing that, you get to understand it. It changes the way you look at the verses. If you understand that that's talking about people, not just male gender people.
Laurie  | 00;02;59;22  | And then this other word, what is the second word?
Joycelyn  | 00;03;02;27  | "Ezer" means helper. And so I think that this is more like in in our English vocabulary. When we think of helper, it tends to be diminished, just tends to be somebody who is not maybe as trained or not equal to somebody, the person who they are helping in in some cases, that's kind of the English vocabulary helps you understand it in that way,  that word more often when it's used refers to God.
Joycelyn  | 00;03;41;02  | And so God is in no way less than anyone else. I mean, he obviously God is God in. And so when you look at that word, when it does refer to this woman in this verse, either then it's she's equal to Adam in the sense of she's not somebody who is less than. But she's to come alongside of him.
Joycelyn  | 00;04;08;13  | So they are to work together. He says in the Lord, God said, It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make him a helper. And that's the word as there there is for that word helper. And at other times in the Bible, he says, I will lift up my eyes to the hills. Where does my "ezer"  come from?
Joycelyn  | 00;04;26;24  | Where does my help come from? My "ezer" comes from the Lord and, you know, trust in the Lord. He is there. "Ezer" and Shield, is there help in your field? That's in Psalm 159. So you can see that it puts a different nuance on the word. When you look at the different places that the Bible uses it and how it uses that word.
Laurie  | 00;04;52;13  | Well, are there other references in the Bible that come to mind to you as you think about like, why train women?
Joycelyn  | 00;05;00;13  | Yes, we already talked about Titus two. And then, of course, the Great Commission and but you think about Jesus and teaching the disciples. And there were women who sat under his teaching there. You think of Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus. And, you know, he commended her for that and committed her for her heart of worship. You think of Priscilla and Aquiline X and how they serve together, teaching.
Joycelyn  | 00;05;32;11  | And then you think of Mary and Elizabeth in terms of the situation of how they really mentor each other and that the Holy Spirit set Mary to Elizabeth you right after she conceived Jesus and how they spent that time together and how they really ministered to each other during that time.
Laurie  | 00;05;54;21  | You know, that's true. That's another one I hadn't thought of, but, you know, only women can mentor one another through pregnancy. Unexpected pregnancy, unlikely pregnancy, and just all of what they were experiencing as much as their husbands loved them, that would just be certain areas where the men wouldn't really be able to enter into the thinking or the feeling maybe.
Joycelyn  | 00;06;20;05  | Yes. Yes.
Laurie  | 00;06;21;23  | What's your view about women and men serving side by side in the church, or how do you see scripture guiding us on this?
Joycelyn  | 00;06;31;17  | Well, we've already talked about how God created Eve as a helper to Adam. And so right there you have the beautiful picture from the garden of how man and woman are to serve together. And you think of Priscilla and Aquila again. That's another one where she came alongside. Are they they together were teaching Apollos because his theological understanding was with off.
Joycelyn  | 00;07;03;25  | We don't know specifically what that was but there are many more. I mean, Paul, again, you think of him commending different women when he talks about when he has greetings there, when he's mentioning people in the church. And so, you know, when they first went into to Macedonia and the first people he met were really down by the river and they were women.
Joycelyn  | 00;07;30;00  | And in that's how the church started. There was by them then entering in and in helping. Lydia was always a big part of hosting her hospitality, of starting that church there. So again, there's so many different picture of men and women coming together with the focus on the gospel and sharing the gospel with others. And then interacting in this community of believers to serve God.
Joycelyn  | 00;07;59;11  | And when you think of Ephesians five and you know it, you have Christ, the head of the church. And then in that aspect that's talking about marriage and how the men and the women in the marriage is to be a reflection of how Christ is to the church. And so there again, you have both male and female being a huge representative of Christ within that marriage relationship to others, both men and women together in community, giving a full reflection of of Christ in us.
Laurie  | 00;08;37;27  | I want to back up a little bit to Entrust what does Entrust have to offer to women in just that? The whole way we approach our women's ministry?
Joycelyn  | 00;08;48;07  | Well, the way we approach the women's ministry is really through a very relational approach and a way of thinking about intentional shepherding and discipline. And so the way we've done that over time is to have some courses that actually right now we have the four courses that we focus on. There are other things outside of those courses, of course, that we need to learn, but the four core courses and that help develop some basic ministry skills, but also skills that you would use for life, you know, in terms of asking open questions and interacting in a small group and then being able to to lead a small group, how you do that?
Joycelyn  | 00;09;33;08  | What does it look like? How did Jesus teach? What can we learn from Jesus to then bring in to how we teach others and lead others and facilitate through that relational type learning and the aspect of thinking of the Trinity. God is three in one. They're all equal with men and women are equal. And as we're working with women in relationships that we all bring to the table our life experiences, we all bring together our gift gifting, and we all have the Holy Spirit in us.
Joycelyn  | 00;10;04;23  | And so in community we can learn from one another. And so that's a big aspect of helping women learn their value in, in Christ. And really looking at their identity in Christ is a second, second course that we go through with developing a discerning heart, which is really a peer counseling course. And it really helps us look back at what are the lives that we might have believed about who we are and or lives that we believed about God and have a grade of thinking through our identity first and then how we experience life off the grid that we think through it.
Joycelyn  | 00;10;43;22  | And how does that how does that really line up with Scripture and align with Scripture so that we're thinking in a right godly way and then developing it as a developing discovery Bible. Thank you. Discovery Bible study really helps teach the skills of inductive Bible study methods, observation, interpretation and application. So really looking at the Bible, how do you study it in context?
Joycelyn  | 00;11;15;02  | And then further continuing on each one of those modules, they build on each other because you're continuing to use skills you learned in the first module and then in the second module to then bring those into the third module, meaning that the participants are facilitating discussions throughout and so they get more and more experience leading Bible study discussions or leading a discussion in the care of your God study.
Joycelyn  | 00;11;42;28  | So they build those ministry skills and also in community they're getting feedback from peers, you know what? You know what they're doing. Well, what might you need to change to do things and communicate in a in a better way and there are so many places in life that we learn things, but we don't get evaluation. And evaluation helps us grow personally, not only in skill, but in character.
Joycelyn  | 00;12;11;07  | And that's the iron sharpens iron. And then the last one is really women equipping women to serve. And that's really helping women to look at the mentoring, what's involved in mentoring, helping women learn to come alongside others, and identifying your spiritual gifts and looking at just evangelism, discipleship, and then temperaments. How do we work with people that are different than us, you know, and and how do we work through conflict and especially with people who are different than us and team building.
Joycelyn  | 00;12;46;23  | So those are all really big skills that are addressed there.
Laurie  | 00;12;51;14  | And we will you've mentioned all four of those core modules from equipping women, and we will have a link to where to find more about all of those courses in the show notes for this podcast. And women can take these courses just about anywhere, right? I believe they've been translated into multiple languages and being offered in various parts of the world.
Joycelyn  | 00;13;15;20  | Yes, there's international hub training and there's training on national and specific languages.
Laurie  | 00;13;22;06  | See what I'm doing? I'm asking you questions that we learn not to ask in facilitating relational learning. I'm asking you. Yes, no questions. And then all you can say is yes or no, and then we're done. So that's not a good way to ask such a question. I recognize my my feeling there. Take you into a corner. So I was going to ask you, maybe you somewhat answered, but what would you say is the vision and the mission of Entrust equipping women?
Joycelyn  | 00;13;48;28  | Their vision and entrust equipping women is to equip women in the local and the global church to go to develop and mobilize others for God's kingdom work. And then looking at that mission wise, why do we want that to be within the local setting? You want that to be reproducible and locally owned in a way that the women can continue to multiply that training in a culturally appropriate way.
Laurie  | 00;14;22;16  | If there's a woman or a man listening to our podcast today, and they're kind of intrigued by this training, how could they get more information about these modules or even maybe take a module.
Joycelyn  | 00;14;36;25  | Elders information in our website, which would be WW W dot interest for and then it would be slash equipping women. And so you can see more specific information about women there and then interest forward and for men and women's training.
Laurie  | 00;15;00;15  | So someone could just say like one time I was just visiting with a local pastor here where I live in Fargo, North Dakota. And I was telling him about this great equipping women. He's like, Well, can you come in and train all the women in my church? And and that is a very logical question to ask. How would I answer that question to that guy?
Joycelyn  | 00;15;23;09  | You would answer that question or to that guy by saying that we don't have the resources to equip every single local church globally. However, we do have these training camps where you can send two or three people to be trained who can then take the training back to the local church. And that's really what we recommend is that you send at least two sending in twos like Jesus did.
Joycelyn  | 00;15;58;00  | If you have three. Great. And then taking the training and look at going back and looking contextually, how am I going to apply this in my local church?
Laurie  | 00;16;08;21  | There you go. That makes a lot of sense. Right. And because once again, then those people become the equipment to some extent as they pass, along with they have learned others in their own local church work contact, ministry, context, whatever it might be.
Joycelyn  | 00;16;25;00  | And then we can serve as a resource. In fact, we do. Our facilitators come alongside of our participants as they're trained. If they have questions, they want to brainstorm things, they can contact their facilitators and brainstorm. How am I doing? What might I? What questions do I need to ask to see what the women in my local church need?
Joycelyn  | 00;16;46;16  | Or if it's men and women, what for? If you're looking at equipment interest as a whole, those would be, you know, the men would be looking at one thing and the women would be looking at this other aspect as equipping women. What what do these women need and how can I do that contextually? I think one thing is sometimes people look at for courses, are we just teaching a curriculum and we use a curriculum?
Joycelyn  | 00;17;17;09  | But it's really the way that we come along and facilitate the training. That is what is so key. We are teaching it in a way that we're using facilitation and good questions so that we learn from each other in that group setting. And then there are skills that we are learning in those courses that you can take back and not necessarily take the curriculum and go back and do a facility guided relational learning class, but go back and facilitate a Bible study.
Joycelyn  | 00;17;54;06  | And yes, you could go back and you could take that course and you could take it back to the local church. However you do, you can use those skills to help develop Bible study skills and other women at your church. You can use those skills to ask really good questions at home with your kids, especially your teenagers and people who have teenagers and like, Wow, our discussions really changed when I started opening, asking open questions or or even, oh, my relationship with my husband really changed when I started applying some of these things that I'm learning.
Joycelyn  | 00;18;29;25  | And so it's really relational skills that you can take back and apply in so many different places in your life. Is it in those spheres of influence that you each person has a different sphere of influence, whether it's in their local church, their family or their community? Yeah, taking the head knowledge that they're learning and learning how to take that to heart.
Joycelyn  | 00;18;57;19  | And that's where that transformation happens. And then how do you how do you practically use those skills? And so many women come in with a fear of, you know, how am I going to do it right? You know, they want to do things right. And so that's what's so key about this is having women come alongside and say, yeah, you great, go for it, and then seeing that transformation spiritually.
Todd (intro/outro)  | 00;19;27;24  | Thank you for joining us today on Entrust Equipping Leaders. Our guest today has been Joycelyn Seybold, Executive Director of Entrust Equipping Women. Find out more about our ministries in today's show. Notes and join us next time as we begin a series of conversations about doing ministry training online. Thank you for subscribing and writing a review of this podcast.
Todd (intro/outro)  | 00;19;50;11  | We'll see you next time.